love has no dark side

0:05You are now experiencing the Nectar of Time. When the moment is there to be in love, I didn't waste it with too much mental masturbation. I don't doubt, which saves me from negativity. And we are so prone to judge and define and cancel. Suddenly now, being in love has a darker side. And

0:55when you enter a relationship with all these doubts, what will you expect? The basic fallacy that you are carrying within you is that you loved always somebody. This is one of the most significant things about all human beings: their love is always for somebody.

1:44It is addressed. And the moment you address your love, you destroy it. It is as if you are saying, "I will breathe only for you. And when you are not there, then how I can breathe?" Ma Anand Sheela, the infamous young renegade of Rajneeshpuram, the commune in Oregon that many people

2:32considered a cult. For the members, it was an attempt at utopia under the spiritual sanction of Osho, known then as Rajneesh or Bhagwan, meaning Lord. Officially, Ma Anand Sheela was the spokesperson for the commune, but for all intents and purposes, she was commander-in-chief. There are countless documentaries and stories on the movement, Wild Wild Country being the most prolific, but Osho was even more prolific. You've likely come across his books at your local bookstore's spirituality section. His teachings are tantalizing and provocative, converging sex and spirituality in the '60s, a time where much of this was still taboo.

3:20So how does Ma Anand Sheela fit into all of this? Well, she fell in love with the man. It was 1972 in India, and she was 22 years old. She dedicated every waking moment to Osho. Whatever he willed, Sheela made it happen. When they needed to leave India, which was another matter, they managed to acquire land in Oregon, develop a town, and ultimately build a fully functioning, thriving commune that even had its own airport. At its peak, Rajneesh had about 20 Rolls-Royces to his name. But what goes up fast may surely come down fast. And the fallout of their commune, of their relationship, is an

4:09epic of its own. Sex, heartbreak, death, attempted murder, jail time, enlightenment: this story has it all. But this is not a documentary. This is a deep dive into Ma Anand Sheela's operating system. What sort of love drives an individual to this level of devotion? What did Ma Anand Sheela hold in her heart? What does she still hold today? My name is Tamir Barzilai, and this is Nectar of Time, an expedition where we find wisdom wherever it takes us. Please enjoy the following interview

4:58with Ma Anand Sheela. I would love to know, as a first question, how are you? How is life? What are you up to right now? I'm very well, to begin with. I have gotten old meanwhile. And I want to comment on your name, Nectar of Time. For me, time becomes nectar only when you are in presence, present moment.

5:48So for me it was a very beautiful name, Nectar of Time. We are here right now in this moment, talking. Thank you. This is how I take your title, Nectar of Time. That's beautiful. I think something that I struggle with is being in the moment. I run two businesses. I'm looking into the future. I have plans. I have activities. And the present seems to evade me. When I talk to people and they say, "I

6:38meditated, I was in the present," I am jealous of them. I envy them. Today, in this time, with the internet, with phones that are buzzing constantly, it's very difficult to achieve this presence. Something that I know is so dear to you, something that is so crucial to your life, to your existence. How do you feel when you look around and you see people, maybe some people like me, some people busier than me? Do you look around and see people truly living? What do you feel when you see this epidemic of non-presence? It is sad at times, because people always choose to live in past or the future,

7:33never where they should be looking. That is present. And at times it is frustrating, 'cause the moment you are in present, you have your freedom, right? And how do you suggest that people can transform from this slavery, this digital slavery that we're in, to feeling like that? Because I hear the words that you're saying and I feel the words that you're saying, but it's so challenging to actually take that step. I know that a lot of

8:26your early life, I mean, that was a priority. It's being present and being in the moment. But how do you maintain that even to this day, and what would you recommend for people? It is easy to maintain for me because I accept life as it comes. My expectations of life are no longer achieving this or achieving that. That is the only reason I was able to take the responsibility of

9:12the commune that we had created. I did not do it to reach top layers of achievement. I was simply doing it because I was in love with this fancy man. And when you accept life as it is, it will be easier on you and it will be easier on your environment. I understand.

10:02And I want to say something to you. Don't feel bad about meeting all these meditators and all these spiritual people, that you're not reaching out there or you don't have enough time to be there where they are. Spirituality is a fashion in the moment. But one doesn't have to follow old fashion. You create your own fashion. Meaning you take care of your responsibilities,

10:52your desires that you need to comply to. And don't compare yourself to others. You are you, others are others, and both are individuals. Thank you. I will take that advice to heart and sit with that. Sheela, I wonder, you know, at the time in the commune, Rajneesh attracted a lot of people. He was a fascinating person. Obviously you

11:40were enthralled by him, seduced by him, and you followed him, and so were so many other people in the actual commune. How many of these people, if you could give a percentage of the people that were there, how many do you think truly embodied what you just described? Embodied the present, embodied the moment, their intuition, their oneness. How many of those people did the teachings actually affect in a meaningful, material way? And how many were just there for the good time? Because when you look at videos, it looks like, you know, a better version

12:29of Coachella or Burning Man or something, where I imagine a lot of people are there for the vanity of it, right? On the one hand, it's spiritual. On the other hand, it's the vanity. It's the fun of being with... It's like you're at summer camp. So, but that's exactly what I meant when I say, don't follow all these spiritual people in that sense. Let them be on their trip, right? You do things that are important for you. For me, I lived in the source of meditation, with Bhagwan. Bhagwan

13:20created meditation to help people for their spirituality. I was totally bored with that kind of a exercise. You know, for me, my work was more fun than to go and jump up and down or go "hoo" or whatever or what. Sheela, that was my suspicion. Very vocal about it, and there were people who used to complain to Bhagwan

14:09that Sheela doesn't meditate, "Why she doesn't meditate?" But Bhagwan said, "You leave her alone. Let her do her work." And for me, that work was sacred because it was the dream of Bhagwan. And to work towards his dream, to make it a reality, for me that was much more interesting. That is interesting, and it's something that I suspected in

14:58what I saw, that your form of spirituality is what is called flow nowadays, where you're in the zone. It's connected to a purpose. It's connected to a mission. It goes back to all of the great texts, whether it's the Bhagavad Gita or whether it's Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. It's having this steadfast vision and fully aligned purpose, where your actions are taking you one step closer, and because you're doing that, you are being blessed with every step to fulfill that next step. Would you think that's a fair estimation? Well, I see it a little bit differently, because what I am doing,

15:50I am doing it for what it is and what comes my way. When it comes my way, I don't have to say yes or no. I don't have a choice. I simply do it. And I do it in a way where I am also helping somebody else, because it gives me pleasure, not to get extra blessings or extra attention for it. It simply is my joy, and so to be engaged in activities.

16:46Right. Well, you mentioned in an interview that love is not words, love is action, right? And I thought that was great. I find it so similar to... There's a line in the Upanishads, and listen, I'm Jewish, I'm not Hindu or anything, but I love the texts. I love all the texts. I think wisdom doesn't live in one particular country. It doesn't live with one particular culture. I think we all have the same receiving systems to get whatever wisdom there is in the world. And in... I don't have the

17:35exact page here, but in the Upanishads specifically, it talks about how all of the rituals and all of the different traditions and prayers and all of that is nice, but they say it's a poor raft to cross the sea of samsara. "My true devotees, the true devotees of God, come directly to me." And it's interesting because, you know, sometimes I'll go to the synagogue. I grew up going to the synagogue with my father. But a lot of people at the synagogue are talking to each other. It's like a social activity. Spirituality, religion, in many cases, a social activity. I could find in many cases more spirituality by going and

18:23climbing a mountain, by going on a hike, by, you know, kilometer 20 on a 21 km run. And for me, what you said about words versus action, there's something about the action in being closer to a god, or being closer to your object of devotion, whether it's your lover. In your case, it was, you know, Rajneesh. That is so much more impactful than reading a prayer, than giving a love note, because you're showing with evidence: here I am. And I think you probably, you know, you feel more fulfilled that way anyways. You feel like you're doing something real instead of just a facade of words.

19:14For me, life is the choices we make. And there is always choice to accept and move forward, or choose something else and fall in a ditch. But both are good choices, huh? If, when you fall in the ditch, you will have to figure out how you come out. There is also activity. There is also using brains. It's okay. But when you choose something

20:04without expectations, then it has a different pleasure. It reminds me of Rudyard Kipling's "If—" poem. "If you can dream and not make dreams your master, if you can think and not make thoughts your aim, if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same." What you just said is the embodiment of that, where it doesn't matter if you fall in the ditch, it doesn't matter if you have some achievement, you keep going. Exactly. And we are in a young age, we have all the energy to do. I mean, right now

20:53I'm not young anymore. I'm 76. But whatever I can do, I want to do it myself. It gives me the freedom. Otherwise, I will become dependent. Yeah, you're a very, very good role model for people that need a lesson in taking sovereignty over their freedom. That's for sure. I want to switch... not switch topics, but I want to sort of move to a certain direction. I'm very curious about your relationship with Rajneesh, with Bhagwan. But there's something about it that

21:41I'm curious about, and at least for me, I haven't seen it really discussed in other interviews that you've done. And that's something that I want to do today, is not really just fall into the same questions that you've heard over and over again, you know, thousands of times at this point. Those are there for everyone that wants them. But my question to you is, when I think about love, I think about two forms of love: a sort of materialistic, earthly love, and I think of a spiritual, divine love. In some cases maybe they're synthesized and integrated together. The spiritual love seems to be, in my understanding, that the object of your

22:28desire, the person that you are in love with, is acting as a sort of conduit, as a vessel for a greater spiritual force, whether that's God or whether that's a universal energy, but they are ultimately the conduit. The more earthly love is you fall in love with their smile and you fall in love with their body, and they're very strong and they're very gentle and whatever attribute you like. How would you describe, on the scale of earthly to divine, where does your love for the Rajneesh sit on that scale? I have no thoughts like you. My process was,

23:18I fell in love with this man, and I enjoyed every moment I could spend around in his aura, his fragrance. I didn't need more. And what can I say? It was not zero to five or seven. No, there's no category there. Just what I felt was so complete that I need not think like that. I never had doubts about it. Also,

24:08I didn't need to be displaying any extra in that matter, just to be there. But that feeling, was that feeling him as a human, or was that feeling him as a conduit of this divine energy, or all of the above? I saw him as a man of my eyes, man of my heart. And he could be spiritual, he could be

24:58non-spiritual. It had no influence on me. I was simply in love with this gorgeous man, you know. Right. I'm sorry for interrogating you on love and the definition of love, but a lot of people do find it interesting, and, you know, looking at it through an intellectual, academic point of view. But I understand totally that it's a non-intellectual thing. It's an intangible thing. It's a feeling. And that feeling is like a unique fingerprint that's only on your heart. That's very difficult to explain. So forgive me for trying to put it under the microscope, but we're doing it for

25:45the sake of science. Perfectly fine. It will bound to fail, your science, that I can guarantee you. Yes. So this is the problem. You know, the science of God is a bit of an oxymoron. It's a bit of a paradox, where you can't really figure out the science of God or the science of love. This is why love is the greatest mystery in the universe. We don't really... It's so, yeah, it's enigmatic and heartbreaking and rapturing and all of the statements. I always tell people, when you turn on the radio, 99% of the songs are about love. It's not about

26:31riding a bike. It's not about driving your car, making a lot of money. It's about love. Either you're on the happy side or you're on the heartbroken side, miserable, suffering side. But like you would say, one thing: I am on the happy side, because my love doesn't depend on anything. Yeah. Except my feelings. But Sheela, was that always the case, when you were younger and everything that happened? And obviously there was a big falling out initially between you two. You couldn't have been stoic then. I mean, that would have been way too much pressure to be stoic then. It must have taken time. It was sad moments there. But that was

27:21also part of love. Mm. And as I said, whatever comes my way, I accept it, accept it graciously. And that's what I did. And whatever thoughts or feelings came, they came and left. As they came, they gone. And it was all worth it. That remained right where it should be. And that's in your heart. That's in my

28:10heart. And how do you feel about this statement? Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "No other pleasure is worth its pains," when he was speaking on love. This not how I feel. Okay. Pain can be bodily also. Pain can be fantasy. Pain can be imagination. For me, pain is nothing to brag about. You have it. You, with your own intelligence and

29:00understanding, you go through it. And is suffering important for personal growth, or is it just an unnecessary byproduct that doesn't matter? Can you be the person you are today without suffering, or do you think you... Definitely. I was in love and I felt the same as I feel now. What do you think, if you could go back and tell, you know, your younger self at the commune some piece of advice that you know today that you didn't know back

29:48then? What would you tell younger Sheela? Let's say, to help her out at that stage of her life. There were people, when I decided to leave Bhagwan, they were part of my family, said, "You can't leave Bhagwan. Why are you doing it? Look, you have everything here, and so much work you have put in." But at that time, that was the only right thing to do, was to leave Bhagwan.

30:41For one reason is, I was not with Bhagwan for my name and title and the luxuries, being a secretary, what I was given, or the... So no, I had my own integrity, and that integrity was not for sale. I was not with him because of titles, because of position I had. I was with him 'cause I

31:31was in love and had a lot of fun with being in love. Did you start to... You know, nowadays, I don't know if you've heard of this term, but people will be in love with someone, they'll have a crush on someone, and then they'll do something and then they'll say, "Okay, now I have the ick. Now I've fallen out of love with them because of something that they did or that they've done." Did you get the ick with Bhagwan? Did you fall out of love with him temporarily, and that's why you left? No. No. It was a question of integrity. He told me, as his secretary,

32:21what my job is. My job was to protect him, protect his community and protect his teachings. And when he himself is going against, and I cannot protect him, it's time for me to go. I see. Then somebody else has to take over my job. Yeah, I understand. And that's what I did.

33:13It seems rational. It seems rational, and it does seem like a decision from integrity. Yeah, I was very clear. Tears were rolling through my eyes. I was listening the people telling me not to go. But it was time for me to go. And even today, I think and feel that I took the right thing. I maintain my integrity that my parents had taught me from childhood.

34:01You speak very fondly of your parents. I believe both have passed away at this point. But I listened to a couple of interviews where you light up when you mention your parents. You just... I don't know, the way that you speak about parents. I think a lot of younger people, including myself, but a lot of younger people in my generation should learn how to speak about their parents, because nowadays it's in vogue to talk badly, in a way, about your parents, about all the traumas that they gave you and every which way that they messed up. What made them so special to you? They were in love with each other,

34:54committed to each other, and they were in love with us. We were six siblings, and I was the youngest, and I was the star of everyone's eye. All my siblings loved me, parents loved me. And the parents had only one desire of us: that we learn and learn in life. Don't give up learning. They taught us how to hanker for freedom.

35:49And they taught us honesty and loyalty. And part of the learning culture that they instilled in you, did that lead to you initially meeting the Rajneesh when you were so young, because you were looking, seeking spiritual, you know, enlightenment? I wasn't looking for spirituality at all. I didn't even know what it meant. What were you looking for? I wasn't looking. My father wanted me to go with him to the discourse that Bhagwan was giving, right? Because he felt,

36:39"This man Bhagwan, lives longer, he'll be the second Buddha." Right. So this was already... This was blessed by, I mean, your father, who you respect and admire and were listening to. He put you to the Rajneesh, so you had the blessing to pursue this path. But it sounds like because you were not there for the same reasons that other people were there, you created your own reasons to be there and fell in love with him. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So Sheela, I'm really curious about your, like, what

37:27is your spiritual view of the world? Do you have one? Do you even look at things in those terms? Do you believe in a god? Do you, you know, what... Why are we here? What's Sheela's answer for what is this weird, strange place that we're in, on a rock in the middle of nowhere? What's your model? That's exactly what it means. Rock in the middle of the nowhere. You know, one of the meaning of word Sheela is rock. There you go. The rock on what they write scriptures. Mm,

38:17That's an interesting metaphor, because that is essentially... You're a conduit for whatever this place is. You're just going to experience the place, right? And I'm going to leave it as fully as I can, in spite of age, in spite of illnesses, whatever comes with it. But are you curious? Are you curious, Sheela, about, you know, what... You know, every once in a while, I understand experiencing it, but from an intellectual standpoint, you're very smart. That's very clear to... You know, probably the sharpest one on that commune, right? There's a reason why Rajneesh had you as a secretary. So I'm

39:07asking, you know, from an intellectual standpoint, if you had to indulge, what do you think this place is? If I have to indulge in what? Then maybe I go for a margarita or a glass of champagne. So you just block it out. You don't bother thinking about that stuff. You don't bother with it. No. Do you think there is a purpose to think about that stuff, or is that missing the point of being here? No, I'm enjoying my life here. Right. There is nothing that I have to judge, that it's good or bad. Mhm. I

39:56remain within my physical limitations so I don't hurt myself physically, 'cause I'm 76. You got to watch out for your steps. You don't get plastered. In this sense, I'm very practical woman. Yeah. And practicality has certain protection, is it? And it makes you comfortable also. So in a sense, being down to earth,

40:48being practical, being pragmatic, that gives you ultimately a sense of freedom and security to live how you see fit. Yeah. And you know, I can sit and philosophize if somebody will, that's not a problem. But I rather sit and enjoy the sun and birds outside my window. Yeah, I can hear it. It's lovely. Yeah. And do you think, you know... What I've seen, what I've noticed as a pattern, from the videos of when you were young all the way to

41:36the videos of you now, and now I'm, you know, privileged to have the experience to see it in real time on a video call. But you have a tendency to be joyful. You have a tendency to smile. It reminds me of... This might be a strange comparison, but it reminds me of, there's this soccer player, Brazilian soccer player, former soccer player, his name is Ronaldinho. And Ronaldinho, what people remember about him is he's always having fun. He's always smiling. Even when his team was about to get knocked out of the World Cup, he's smiling. He's having a giggle. He takes things a little bit more lightly than the average person. And I see that trait in you. Do you look around at the world and see everyone taking life so

42:26seriously and being so stressed out and anxious? Do you look at that and just laugh and say, "Wow, what a comedy"? It wonders me. When I see, when I'm shopping or something, and I see people very serious, couple serious there, with their children there, yelling or screaming or whatever, you know, I wonder what they was so stressed out about. But my mother had six children. All monsters.

43:17One is talking to you. But I have never seen her with a serious face. My eye doctor always used to say, when your mother walks into the room, room is full from happiness. And that's how I feel. So that comes from my mother. It sounds like a lot of your operating system for your life, for your mind, came from your parents and how you were brought up. What didn't come from your parents? What is unique to you that

44:05you picked up on your own? I don't know. I never thought from that point of view. Is there any book, any, maybe even a movie, maybe some idea, a person that impacted you and added something into... Yeah, teachings of Bhagwan added lot. But even there, when I would listen, I go for discourses every morning with him, I would fall asleep. I'll fall asleep on the floor. But you got it through. While you were

44:51sleeping, you got it through your subconscious. Got lot of it. What about outside of, you know, the teachings of Osho? Were there any books that you picked up? I don't know, maybe you picked up Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Did you ever pick anything up that was totally different than what you were learning in the commune, that stuck with you, that you liked? My own character. I did my thing. I didn't imitate. And

45:43I have no reason to imitate. And I never thought in those terms, but when you ask me and I think back, that's what comes to my mind. So I appreciate that, because obviously we're in an age of imitators, where we see someone, we see an influencer, we see a person online, they recommend this thing, they recommend that thing, and so we want to be more like them. So we start collecting all the artifacts that they have, with the idea that we can become like them one day. I appreciate the discipline of sticking to your own DNA,

46:33to your own style, which is why you have a style, which is why people like me call you to interview you, because they want to know a little bit about it. The curious thing... So for me, on this podcast, we love to highlight stories. We love to highlight books. Obviously your story is its own book, but I'm curious if there were any things, like, for example, you know, Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. These are popular books. Did you read much, or did you not really care too much about that? I was more into, when I was in school... Mhm. I read what school wants you to read, and few extra things. My father would read something to us

47:25when we were young, and that had lot of... There was a lot of affection. As a interesting five-year-old child, I remember sitting on my papa's lap, and he would be reading me Kahlil Gibran. What do I know about Kahlil Gibran? But he would read. So that stuck with you. He would... We would sleep in summer outside in the garden, and he would teach us stars, and every day help us find a new star

48:16in the sky. So things like that had more impact on me, right? And it was the difference of, instead of you picking up Kahlil Gibran, and I don't know if the book was The Prophet or one of his other books, but it was not just the book, it was the delivery. It came from a source of love. It came from a trusted person. That's right. Yeah, someone who really wanted me to learn something, right? And being a fine art student, I was more into painting or pottery or whatever, sculptoring or whatever. And

49:05those things also became heavy on me after a while. You go into the museums and they are so sterile that I would lose my enthusiasm. So after a while I stopped doing that also. But then I didn't even have much time to do anything like that. Do you ever feel like you wish maybe you met... I know the answer to this question already, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. Do you ever wish that, maybe because you were quite young when you met Rajneesh, do you wish you maybe met him a little bit later,

49:56so that you could have experienced, I don't know, let's say, other things? Because you also lost as much as you gain. You also lost other possibilities, right? Do you ever... I have lost anything? No. I have been... In fact, I have received so much. Okay. So it was worth it. I have never have a feeling of loss. Right. But you understand why a lot of people do. They feel, "I went to university, so I lost this. I didn't go to university, I lost this." This is like a very common... not regret, but you're choosing a life path and you cut off unlimited other life paths. But that's what I mean when I say life is the

50:46choices you make. Mhm. If you go to university and later on you feel, "Oh, it was a waste of time," then for you it was waste of time. I would say, if I would go to university, and one... It happened to me, in fact. I was 21 year old. I was accepted by Michigan artist, well-known artist Ed Harding, to become his

51:34apprentice. He viewed my portfolio and he said, "Okay, I will teach you lithograph and watercolors," and whatever else he knows. In between, when my semester with him begins, before that, I come to India to visit my mother, who was operated on her eyes. And I go visit Bhagwan after visiting my mother, and I fell in love with him, and I didn't want to go away from him, and I didn't. Wow.

52:23Such courage. Couple of paintings of Ed Harding hanging right in my room. Wow. And people ask me, when I tell them the story, "Did you not miss out on it?" But I have never had a feeling of missing out. Now, instead of doing painting, I'm improving my being. You're painting in 3D. No. Yeah. But you realize that it's such a rare trait, rare attribute, to have that

53:16equanimity, to have that balance in your mind, where all the accounts have been reconciled. For a lot, that's not the case, and it's never the case, and it's tragic. It's tragic, and many of us are working towards that. So I think in that sense you're blessed to have that, whether it came from your parents, whether it's innate in you, because it's rare. But I do appreciate the optimism, the joy. In fact, I see a lot of it in my father. My father is 77, he's turning 78 soon. He also, he had a very difficult childhood, difficult life. But no matter the difficulties at home, always positive,

54:04always, yeah, always having fun, always looking at the possibilities, never ever depressed, never looking back and saying, "Oh, this, oh, that." Maybe he hid it. Maybe he hid it very well and I never saw it. But it's just so difficult to even think in those terms nowadays without having conversations about trauma, about, you know, woe is me, life is so difficult, when for the most part, many people don't have that difficult lives, but they become difficult because of the multiplicity of decisions that need to be made constantly. Where, when I talk to you about a life path, it presents to us every day

54:52a smorgasbord of life paths, and all of them equally good, and we don't know which one to take, and so we're caught in this anxious straitjacket. How can people become more like you in terms of your approach to that? You mentioned earlier being in the present, but is there anything else that they can do as a practice to move one step closer to your direction? Become clear of one's own desire, and bear in mind, when you have expectations of others, you will be disappointed,

55:44'cause they will never be fulfilled. And the moment you are disappointed, you will get depressed. So avoid this Catch-22. That's why I say that whatever comes my way, I take it as is and try to go through it. It's, yeah, it's beautiful, beautifully

56:35said. I think it echoes the wise words in many, many scriptures and many modern-day books on self-development and success. I mentioned earlier the Gita. I mentioned Rudyard Kipling's "If—" poem. Of course there's a lot. There's the poem "Invictus": "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." There's a lot of these beautiful sources of truth, nectar of time, if you will, that you embody. And whether people like you or they hate you, they can't argue that you

57:27have the conviction. And if Sheela says she's going to do something, she's going to do it. Well, they don't have to worry about that anymore. You know, she likes... No, but you're running two care homes. You know, business... To be successful in business is not an accident. It still requires the same characteristics. You're right. But I'm officially retired. Are you? Okay. Well, yeah. Officially retired, because our partner is government. I see. And the government has allowed me

58:18to be old, working till 75. Well, happy retirement. It's a great place to be. I'm not there yet. But I still have some more qualms about love, because we spoke, and you spoke about love in a very beautiful way, in a way that, you know, highlights the divine nature of it, that highlights the devotion, the obsession even, the loyalty. But do you believe there's a dark side to love? Do you believe there's a side to love where it can lead you astray? Where it's no longer grounded?

59:06Perhaps it's no longer reciprocal, or it causes a lot of trouble in its wake. You know, the top example is Paris from the Trojans taking Helen back to Troy, and he caused a whole war over love. Okay. So stupid now. And she was married. She was married. So there has to be, in all of the... You know, I have a book here. It's just a beautiful collection of essays called Meeting the Shadow. You know, it says, "The hidden power of the dark side of human nature." The hidden power. You know, this is Jungian psychology, where you have this darker side to yourself, to different things in your

59:53life, where it exists like a reactor of energy, right? And you can use that reactor to power your life, or you can use it to nuke a city, right? That's the beauty and devastation of power. It seems to me, from my research and personal experience, that love is dangerous as much as it's beautiful. There are thorns on the rose for a reason. I'm curious about your general thoughts about this, the darker side of love. I don't think in terms like that. For me, being in love was not dark at all. It was wonderful,

1:00:45because though I fell in love, when time came, I was very clear it's time to go. And I left without looking back, because my journey now was to go forward. And that clarity has given me the strength and not taken me in wrong direction,

1:01:35where I would suffer. As I said before, I was very pragmatic, and I'm still very pragmatic. Do you think... I think you're going to have a headache today. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is my duty. This is my duty. I'm trying, in my life, to listen less to the intellectual acrobatics that happen in my mind and more to the present, to the heart. Of course, I mentioned earlier, I find this

1:02:26still quite challenging, because I can trust my mind more than I can trust my heart, because my mind seems more reliable, let's say. What's your argument against that? Because for you it seems like it's the opposite. Totally opposite. And when the moment is there to be in love, I didn't waste it with too much mental masturbation. I don't doubt, which saves me from negativity.

1:03:18And we are so prone to judge and define and cancel things out. Suddenly now, being in love has a darker side. That's like we even put love in a cancel culture. Cancel culture. Yeah. Right. And when you enter a relationship with all these doubts, what will you expect? That relationship will not have any joy, 'cause you never will be certain

1:04:13of what you're getting. And this falling in love is to shut down all other senses and just go for a free fall. And that free fall will teach you trust. Love and trust are part of one another. People have so much problem with

1:05:05relationships because most of the relationships are based in need. Then this need becomes a bargain point. It becomes a business, right? And neither partner is happy with it, because you lose your freedom. As soon as you lose your freedom, you have a feeling of captured,

1:05:59right? And that causes bad relationships. Once that feeling comes in, that causes trouble, and then you fall into your own trap. You create a dependency. Sheela, this is all fantastic. I think this is very, very interesting stuff. This is the stuff I really wanted to get into. I'm curious, like, you've had a few different partners, serious partners in your life. How challenging was it to get into a

1:06:50relationship, a serious relationship, whether it was a marriage or otherwise, while they knew that they would probably never compare to the love you felt for Rajneesh? I was very clear with my lovers. They anyway cannot compare with Bhagwan. That's a category of its own. And they also loved Bhagwan, so they understood it. And if they become jealous of one another, the lovers among themselves,

1:07:40then I would drop both of them at the same time. We going to enjoy our being together. Good. We work out a schedule, because we all are busy. And we created a schedule, and my schedule was always overburdened, but we spend beautiful time together. And that's something I had learned from Bhagwan. The

1:08:33do not become possessive of one another. Allow freedom, and it has to be equal freedom. Sometimes they make rules that your girlfriend can only do this or boyfriend can do that. No. Right. Full freedom. Full freedom. If desired. If desired by both parties. Yeah. I know people in my community, they meet a person, new

1:09:24individual, and next thing, they are already negotiating how loyal they have to be and how true they have to be. That means they have created a prison. Uh-huh. Wow. So only one week together spent, and it's already they have to decide, are they going to be which way? So Sheela, in your marriages, and forgive me if this is too personal, but I'm just curious, were your... Because it sounds like the marriage in its own right is a prison, from the

1:10:13definitions that you're saying. Was it then mostly, the marriage was there for just, you know, governmental, legal reasons, to put that in place? No, actually it was different reason. Okay. My first husband, Chinmaya, I call him still with the name Bhagwan had given us. Yeah. 'Cause he was in the commune, right? You met him in the commune. He also was in the commune. Yeah. Yeah. But I met him in this school. Okay. And he was a patient of Hodgkin's disease at a very young age, in '70s. Yeah. He was given year and a half to

1:11:06live. That's leukemia, right? A sort of... It's a lymphatic system, right? Okay. Cancer. Yeah. Now, he didn't want to get involved with me because of it, because he's going to die. It's unfair to me. And we were both into logic. So I approached him logically. I said, "Would you prefer that I live with somebody, and I don't love that person, but I have security of that person

1:11:56for many years to come? Or would you prefer that I stay with you, and whatever time we both have together, we enjoy it?" He could not beat my argument. He had to give in. And we weren't even Bhagwan sannyasins. Or, I knew Bhagwan's name from my father, books from him. Other than that, I didn't know much. Then I go visit my mama. No, afterwards, what happened is, one day we were eating together.

1:12:46Every evening, and we would sit back to back on the floor and eat. And it was such a beautiful way, in my little room. We would sit back to back like this, and we would eat, and we would talk and philosophize. But it has to be logical. So one day we were talking about marriage, and we said, "How can we be against marriage when we are not married? You're right, let's get married." Next day

1:13:35we went to the registrar to register marriage. We had a marriage appointment. We did marriage. So that's how the marriage came. But we were both against it, right? In the beginning. So I have to at least try it in order to be against it, right? And then we meet Bhagwan, and it all makes sense, right? And this sense of self also gives certain self-respect and ability to say your mind. Yeah.

1:14:28And so... Okay. So, but you ended up marrying, like, two more times. So those were for different reasons then, presumably. Yeah. One time I lost a bet and I had to marry. I don't think you're the first for that to happen. And another time, again, I fell in love with... Was the second time in Vegas or something? That's funny. No, we got married flying to India, by a captain of the ship, captain of the... Pilot. Pilot. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:24Wow. So that was just... You lost? You lost the bet, or the guy lost the bet? I lost the bet. Yeah, I already knew the answer to that one. That's hilarious. Sheela, one last topic and then I'll let you go soon. But we talked about love and talked about quite a few things, very interesting ideas. We didn't talk about love and its relation to sex. Are those two separate categories, or are they the same thing? It is my observation

1:16:14that when a couple is attracted to one another, suddenly love drops in, because that's the only way they can engage themselves in sexuality, from the tradition, religion and culture. So love has nothing to do with it. For me, I'm in love with Osho so long.

1:17:02Mhm. And it is not based in sexuality. It was never based in sexuality. If it was, the argument could be made. If it was based in sexuality, it would never have lasted so long. Well, there is one argument. But even if it was based in sexuality, and if it is love, then it would leave its fragrance for both of us. Right.

1:17:52So people say, "I love you. I love you." Better, more honest would be to say, "Hey, come, we roll together on this carpet." 'Cause it's different. It's not the same thing. Yeah. But at least it's honest. Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't have honesty in your relationship, then is it worth it? Yeah. Well, honesty is a scary proposition

1:18:43for most, not for you. But, you know, we were taught from childhood honesty, so it's easy now. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody asked me yesterday a question about why people are afraid of you. I said, "Because I call spade a spade." Yeah. Are people still afraid of you? I have no idea. But this young man who was interviewing asked me this question, so I assume he must have come across somebody who is

1:19:32afraid of me. I do notice in a lot of comment sections that people are not very forgiving of you. There are a lot of hateful comments. And of course, listen, there's definitely things for people to take issue with. But the problem is that, like you said many times, you served your time. You did what you had to do. According to the law, everything was legal. We have a system in our society for paying a penalty. Just like you get a parking ticket, you're gonna pay 50 bucks. And to whatever scale, degree that goes to, you pay the penalty relative to the

1:20:19to the crime, and then presumably that's it. You get to move on. But what I see is that people don't let you move on. They keep you shackled to the past. But when I look at people like Mike Tyson, if you look at Mike Tyson nowadays, everybody loves him. He gets to be in movies. He's commentating. People forget his assault, you know, against a woman, physical assault against a woman, going to jail. So it seems like it's very selective. For some people, they get to be in a certain category. For other people, we're going to hold it against them. Do you feel that that's, you know, hypocritical and not fair? If I think normal, like everybody

1:21:08else, then I would say, yeah, I would suffer that it's unfair. Mhm. But I don't need their approval. Yeah. I don't give them the honor of approval. I'm a bit of arrogant woman. And it's their problem. They have a problem with me. They have to live with it, not me. Right. So I'm generous. I'm not... I want your opinion on one last

1:21:57thing, Sheela, and then we'll let you go. And I really appreciate the time, and it's been lovely. Are you familiar with the Vedantic story The Princess of Kashi? No. Have you heard of that before? I'll say it very quickly. I'll do a very quick rendition, and it's about love, and I want your thoughts on it, and then we'll end there, and I think it'll be a good way to end this. But the story of the Princess of Kashi: there was a man of about 20 years of age, a prince at this kingdom in some part of India, a long time ago, in ancient times. And one day he goes down to the storage room of his house, of his palace, and he sees this piece of artwork, and it's of this beautiful young girl, and she's a princess. And he looks at the

1:22:47date. He turns it around. He looks at the date behind the canvas, and the date was about 15 years ago. So based off the girl's age, she's probably going to be around the same age as he is today. And he looks at the photo, at the portrait, and he falls in love with her, and he starts dreaming about her, and he says, "Wow, I need to find this girl. She's going to be perfect for me." And he sort of just, you know, becomes enthralled in this, and eventually he realizes, "Okay, I need some help to find out where she is." So he finds a local minister, I don't know if it's a priest or someone, and he says, "Hey, I'm in love." And the priest says, "Oh, fantastic. Who is it with?" And he says, "Well, it's with a princess." "Even better. Great. We can plan the marriage.

1:23:36You know, where is she from?" "Well, that's the problem. I need some help." So he brings the priest and minister down to the storage area. He shows the photo, the portrait, to him, and he looks at it and he says, "Wow, you're right. She does look like she's going to be the same age." And then all of a sudden he remembers. He said, "Oh, I know exactly who this is." So the prince said, "Fantastic. Let's go find her." The priest then says, "Well, not exactly. About 15 years ago, the palace, the kingdom, we were putting on a play called The Princess of Kashi, and we

1:24:24were looking for a young girl to play the part of the princess, but we couldn't find one. So we got you, at, you know, at your young age, to dress up, 'cause at that age, it doesn't matter. So we got you to dress up as the young girl. And this is actually you." And so this guy, this prince, all of a sudden realized that he doesn't have this heaviness in his heart anymore. He doesn't have this longing, because it's him all along. And just like that, it vanished. So this is like a Vedantic story that I learned from Swami Sarvapriyananda, Advaita Vedanta swami in New York, in Manhattan. What are your thoughts on it? 'Cause obviously you know what the meaning of it is. What do

1:25:12you think about that? Well, I enjoyed you telling me the story, but I find it very profound that we are looking outside, but we have it. It is your inner core. It's your inner self he's looking. Do you think you need to find it inside before you find it outside? I don't know. But when I fell in love, it was a inner process.

1:26:02It was from my heart, and I had to understand that process, and Bhagwan helped me with it also, to understand it. Fascinating. Wow. I love it. This was a really beautiful conversation. I hope it was interesting for you. I know you have a lot of these. But I really, really appreciate you being on, Sheela. Thank you so much. Well, I thank you. Your questions were wonderful for me. I wish more people would ask questions, thinking, and really find

1:26:52a way to ask the way you have done it. Not copy you, but learn from you, your viewers. Wow, that's a compliment, Sheela. I really appreciate those words. Thank you very much. Do you ever come to Europe, or... No? I do. I do. I come to Europe. I try to come, like, every other summer. For the last few years, I've tried to do that. So Greece is my favorite place. Yeah. Well, I understand. But Switzerland is not behind Greece. It's... Oh, Switzerland is beautiful. Beauty. You know what? I definitely need to go to that part

1:27:40of Europe. I haven't done much of that. I've really been stuck in the Mediterranean when I'm there. But if I'm there, when I'm there, I would love to meet you and have that tea in person. Do that. Yeah, do that. Send me a message. Sure. Which part of Switzerland are you near? Zurich. One hour from Zurich, one hour direction Basel. Okay. Lovely. Yeah. I think we can obviously keep talking for a long time. You have a lot of really interesting things to say, and the questions are endless.

1:28:27You've lived an amazing 76 years. You've had your ups, you've had your downs. But you've lived. And I think that's the one lesson that people should take, is that you've at least lived. It's not a facade of a life. It is a real, tangible life. No matter what people feel about it, but the most important thing is you feel amazing about it. You feel fulfilled. And one can only wish, and I can only wish to feel like that when I'm 76, that I've truly lived. I wish you that, because it's a blessing. What do you

1:29:29do?